A debate on Israeli “Apartheid” between BDS activists and Pug
I have a Facebook friend who recently commented on the wall of a Pro-Palestinian and Pro-BDS Israeli Jew. And during my free time in the windy autumn of Serbia, I could’nt resist getting involved in the debate.
So here’s the transcript of that debate, without the real names so I can keep my pseudonym, even if my true idendity is no longer a real secret.
I hope this debate can help people who are struggling to defend their pro-Israel views.
Please keep in mind english is note my birth language.
Pug: Apartheid is an afrikaner word that means “separate development”. Under this policy, (that originated in the request for protection by the unions of white blue collar workers and miners against the competition of underqualified black workers), white and blacks had separate developments in a same country.
Apartheid is a south-african phenomenon that has no equivalent elsewhere because all situations are different.
But even if you want to call this “Apartheid”, I would like to remember that it is a Christian Arab judge, Georges Kara, that presided the court that sent a Jewish President, Moshe Katsav, to jail for rape and sexual assault. NO WHERE in the western democracies has a event of this significance happened. It’s like a americain black judge sentencing Bill Clinton to jail for sexual assault, or a French Muslim Arab judge sentencing François Hollande to jail.
Please also tell me how Rana Raslan, a Muslim Arab beauty queen, was elected Miss Israel in 1999 in an apartheid state. Or how Druze officers are given command of the Golani Bridage or of the Interior Front.
And I guess, the best is always to go to the source, right? https://www.prageru.com/videos/black-south-african-israel-and-apartheid
R.B.: as mentioned, the criminal State of Israel is an apartheid state by design. read the law and don’t bother me about a fig leaf judge. when we hold Nuremberg trials for Israeli criminals that judge will not be in a different category than the other enablers of this crime.
(And just in case you feel a state of Palestine will solve the matter, you might want to know the little but eloquent history of its flag. Yes, in case you don’t get it: Palestinians have the same flag as the National-Socialist Panarab Baath Party, the Nazi inspired party of Saddam Hussein and Bachar Al Assad.)
Nuremberg Trials for Israel… you couldn’t be more ridiculous. Are you putting the IIIrd Reich and Israel on the same level of crime? Stop thinking you understand the law when you don’t understand a thing about history, please.
Intervention by M.J.: wow what a patronizing, ignorant comment. Yes there are many in Israel who will stand trial, once the occupation is forced to end. The list of the dead is long, very long.
Pug’s answer to M.J.: Give me the list! Names, dates of death, circumstances of death, with the evidence to support all. Your « trials » will have none of that. If Israel is defeated, there will be another Holocaust without any kind of « trial ». But that is precisely what you want and will approve, right?
R.B.’s last answer in this debate: My only regret about the demise of Shimon Peres is that he died before we had a chance to try him for crimes against humanity. #NurembergTrials
K.A.’s answer to Pug, about the “international law”: Yes. It’s called the UN. The same organisation that gave birth to Israel. Also backed up by the majority of countries around the world. As to your patronising attempt at edification on Apartheid, whatever its etymology or origin, it is today commonly understood to be a system of institutionalised, racial segregation and discrimination – unambiguously the case in Israel.
Pug’s answer: Well I visited muslim Arab, Christian Arab, Druze, Circassian villages in Israel. I met with non-jews who immigrated to Israel. I have a close friend who is not a halachic jew and who is a israeli citizen. In fact, all are Israeli citizens with full rights and none have complained about an « apartheid ». I met with Nazareth mayor who is the first muslim mayor of Nazareth and calls himself a Palestinian. The Arab Party is the third at the Knesset.
So I patronize again by asking you what on earth is your definition of « apartheid » and I truly believe you are either mislead by lack of knowledge or a blatant liar with anti-jewish political agenda.
Oh and you believe the UN is edicting international law, do you? By voting resolutions, right? Sorry, you’re wrong. International law is made of treaties signed by the countries. Treaties are the only documents countries are bind to, and by their own choice, not by the arbitrary vote of a UN held hostage by 56 muslims Nations against the only Jewish one.
And in 1947, the UN voted for a partition of Palestine, nothing else. It is the Jews alone who created Israel because they were ready since at least 1920. If the UN had created Israel, the Arab State would also already exist. But the Arabs refused because they didn’t want an independant arab state in Palestine, they wanted an huge Arab State from Irak to Egypt and from Syria to Yemen.
K.A.: So apartheid huh……let’s put aside the fact that there are roads that Palestinians are not permitted to use and that there are different number plates on cars to differentiate the different ‘types’ of people……let’s just look at stones. If a Jewish boy and a Palestinian non-Jewish boy are standing side by side, throwing stones at soldiers in some demonstration and they are caught, they will be tried (that’s even if the jewish boy IS tried) under 2 very different legal systems – one civil and the other military. That’s apartheid!
As for the creation of Israel, or more correctly the creation of Israel on someone else’s land, you are right that the Palestinians didn’t agree. But they did not agree because it was going to be created on THEIR land.
And as for International law, “the UN Charter, in its Preamble, set an objective: “to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained”. Ever since, the development of, and respect for international law has been a key part of the work of the Organization. This work is carried out in many ways – by courts, tribunals, multilateral treaties – and by the Security Council, which can approve peacekeeping missions, impose sanctions, or authorize the use of force when there is a threat to international peace and security, if it deems this necessary. These powers are given to it by the UN Charter, which is considered an international treaty. As such, it is an instrument of international law, and UN Member States are bound by it. The UN Charter codifies the major principles of international relations, from sovereign equality of States to the prohibition of the use of force in international relations.” – un.org. Israel has consistently violated and otherwise failed to adhere to countless resolutions. She has been roundly condemned by every nation on earth except the US.
Pug: About the stone. When you say that one boy is Jewish and the other is Palestinian, you’re intentionnally mixing things up. If you say Jewish for one, you must say Arab for the other. And if you say Palestinian for one, you must say Israeli for the other. Because there lies the heart of the matter. If a Palestinian boy throws a stone against Israeli troops in Judea and Samaria, he will be brought to justice under the correct jurisdiction. And since Israel did not annex Judea and Samaria but occupies it legally since 1967 after freeing it from Jordan, the correct jurisdiction is the military court. Therefore, the Palestinian boy, who is not Israeli but Palestinian, can only be judged by the Military Court. On what grounds could a foreigner be judged by a civilian court in Israel for something he didn’t do on Israeli land?
No apartheid there. Simply following the law coherently
And for the UN, based on the same website as yours, I answer that only a few of UN Resolutions are binding:
And there is an international treaty, the San Remo Agreement of 1920, that, under a mandate of the League of Nations, established a Jewish National Home in Palestine, that is the western part, west of the Jordan. Under this treaty, all Jewish settlements west of the Jordan are legal.
By the way, the PLO agreed to the occupation of Judea and Samaria by the same text it established the Palestinian Authority and agreed for 3 zones, A, B and C. So Israeli presence in Judea and Samaria is all but illegal. They have a international treaty that allows it, they have a right by the law of armed conflicts to occupy a land after they were agressed in 1967 and they have an international treaty, the 1993 Oslo Agreement with the PLO to share jurisdictions on Judea and Samaria. You want to call the Oslo Agreement off? By all means! It will also call off the PA which is standing in the way of the true solution: Full annexation of Judea and Samaria by Israel!
About apartheid again, if you talk of Apartheid in Israel, what about the millions of Palestinians that should be Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanese of Egyptian because they were born there and never left Palestine in 1948? They are being refused citizenship in the land they were born in contradiction with international law on refugees. Now that’s Apartheid!
K.A: You are clearly an intelligent guy. But your logic and conclusions are flawed on many levels, possibly/probably because your ideology is skewed. I can only encourage further reading – with an open mind – and critical thinking. On top of that, it is clear that you are completely disconnected from your feelings. Nothing you have said resonates with me as a human. It is ‘learned’, ‘regurgitated’ hasbara that makes sense only if one has a dehumanised view of the indigenous people of Palestine. I will end this discourse now because I can see that no amount of reason will sway you.
Intervention by M. Al G.: K.A., He’s nothing more than a zpos propaganda troll…working with a classic zbs script! They CAN’t STAND HONEST JEWS like R.B. HA!!!!
Pug’s final answer: K.A, I responded to your reasoning with logic and facts and you’re just telling me they’re screwed because I don’t have a human heart. So you’re saying that you can’t convince me because your evidence doesn’t stand my logic and so you call to my emotions. Well, emotions do not stand on top of reason, in my view.
And most people who know me will strongly disagree with you! I’m known to be a very and even too much sensitive person. When my dog died, the vet told me he felt I would have given my life to save his, just to give en example.
I also wrote an article in French that is called “In the name of Palestinians” where I attack the dehumanization of Palestinians but I simply don’t see things your way. For me, the ones that are dehumanizing the Palestinians are the crooked bunch of Palestinian leaders, backed by millions of political anti-zionists and religious/racial antisemites, who do not care about the Palestinians and only use them as propaganda weapons and ammunition against Israel and the Jewish people. And this is especially true with the UNWRA and the very special refugee status made up exclusively for Palestinians. All other children of refugees born in a foreign country are citizens of that country and are not refugees. Only the Palestinians are kept under the curse of being of refugees with no rights, transmitted by birth. A legal status inherited by birth, like Outcasts in India or like Jews for thousands of years in Europe. That is how much dehumanized, by the Palestinian cause, are the Palestinian individuals who have no other right but to be public images of suffering so that they can, by their very existence, accuse Israel.
But they suffering too is a myth. Palestinians have a 3,5% population growth called “the Miracle of Gaza” by demographic experts. Palestinians have a 73 year old life expectancy, which is blatantly inconsistance with any idea of genocide or of children mass killings by Israel. (Jordan is 74, China and Brazil 73, Egypt and Russia 69, and Afghanistan, a true war torn country is at 60). I could go on, by talking about how Palestinians doctors themselves published a survey of obesity in Gaza, stating that 49 % of women and 30% of men in urban Gaza are above the obesity standard. And all of this data cand be found nowhere else than in the official UN database. You know, the same UN that consistently votes against Israel and therefore cannot be accused of being pro-Israel!
So yes, I stand my ground. The Palestinian Cause, which originated in the Al-Husseini mafia-type family’s attempt to dominate politics in Palestine after the Ottomans fell and that was fueled by Nazi antisemitism, Waffen SS training that was later taken over by the Soviet KGB, is dehumanizing both Palestinians and Jews in a combination of Hatred and Holy War against the Jewish People but also, in the end, against any form of opposition to Arab Supremacy and Islam Fundamentalism, including Christians of course who are being persecuted in “Palestine”, expelled from Gaza, Nazareth and Bethlehem where Christian population has dramatically dropped for the past 20 years. You think you are defending the Palestinian People but you’re merely giving your voice to a cause that wants Arab and Muslim Supremacy of the Middle East, and if one day they succeed, you will realize that you have been played and used but it will be too late.
And if you think I’m a cold-headed cruel Zionist who hates everyone, like the anti-israel propaganda says we are, please read the following article I wrote in French in 2013 ans translated into English. I don’t hate or dehumanize anyone. I love the Jewish People, of which I am not.